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Kitsula's Log - Some thoughtful questions which no one will answer...
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Some thoughtful questions which no one will answer...
Posted this in [info]osu_psa and thought I'd post it here too:

Most practices and beliefs cannot really be explained in a 'name', and I'm wondering what people actually do and believe. So, I've got some questions if anyone wants to explain themselves further.

1. What do you call your Path/Tradition/Folkway/Religion/et cetera?
2. What are your practices?
3. What are your views on the gods/the divine?
4. What are your views on Ethics?
5. What are your views on death?
6. Out of curiosity, what is your background?

1. What do you call your Path/Tradition/Folkway/Religion/etc.

This is a tough one. Trying to come up with a name in PSA I came up with 'Syncretic Mishmash' which I felt was the best possible option at the time and it probably sounds a good deal better than possibly saying 'Greco-Roman-Shinto-Buddhist' (which I will explain in the next question) and 'Eclectic' which to me seems to indicate a lack of overall coherence in structure.

2. What are your practices?

I personally try to ground my practices in Greco-Roman practices (pulling from both Greek and Roman practices where appropriate) - as for why: it seems to be a natural and appropriate folkway to me, and the Greek gods seem a bit more approachable to my mind for some reason than say the Celtic or Germanic/Norse gods.

But to get back to practices - I try to do a simple general veneration twice daily of my ancestors/family spirits, household spirits, Inari/Dakiniten (I'll explain later), and other deities/spirits with an interest in the wellbeing of the household. The veneration typically consists of:

1. Purification - Washing hands and face with purified water.
2. Ringing a bell.
3. Lighting a candle.
4. Offering some incense.
5. Prayer/Veneration.
6. Tossing some barley on the altar.
7. Offerings.
8. Meditation.

Or if I don't have much time ending after 4.

Additionally, I may so a quick ritual when the mood strikes me and may set up a second altar for holidays/festivals/special events. If I am honoring a deity of another culture (say Inari separately), I'll use culturally specific forms but if I am unsure I'll use a Hellenic format.

However I am also a Buddhist. Now one may ask how can both be a Buddhist and a Pagan - Well it's the same way you can be Shinto and Buddhist or Bon and Buddhist. Lance Cousins (a former president of the Pali Text Society) expresses the why more eloquently than I can:

"One common feature of the three great traditions should be noted. Everywhere it has penetrated, Buddhism coexists with indigenous religious traditions in complex ways. This is true both of elaborate and varied systems such as Hinduism, Confucianism or Taoism, and equally of simpler forms of local folk religion and cultus. This is no accident. It is a consequence of the founder's concentration upon the most essential. Nor has it proved a weakness. It has enabled Buddhism to adjust successfully and sensitively to varied environments, seeking to adapt and transform rather than to destroy. It is an error to think of a pure Buddhism, which has become syncretistically mixed with other religions, even corrupted and degenerate in later forms. Such a pure Buddhism has never existed. Buddhism has always coexisted with other religious beliefs and practices. It has not usually sought to involve itself in every sphere of human ritual activity, since many things are not considered 'conducive to' the path, i.e. not relevant to the spiritual endeavour. Its strength perhaps lies in this very incompleteness which has given it great flexibility and adaptability in many different cultures.

So the superstition and 'animism' of the villager, the widespread Asian interest in magic, numerology and astrology, the rituals of the Brahman or Taoist priest, while not part of the fundamental orientation, may be practiced if desired so long as the main aim is not lost. Buddhism as such has no more to say about them than the natural scientist about the laws of tennis. They are irrelevant. This very fact entitles the Buddhist modernist to reject such things, however much they have historically been entwined with the life of ordinary Buddhists. But if he goes on to claim that Buddhism is opposed to such things, this may be a natural exaggeration or sometimes an excessive wish to accord with alien values."
1

Historically, Hellenic practices were combined with Buddhism itself in the Indo-Greek kingdoms of Northern India and Bactria and the Greeks greatly contributed to Buddhist Iconography (with the Buddha's usnisa being modeled on Apollo Belvedere's krobylos2) and philosophy.

In fact "… the Gandharans quickly became such fervent Buddhists that their sculptures of Buddha soon outnumbered those of the Greco-Bactrian goddess Artemis-Anihita and of the Indian god Siva, even though the latter had been so popular there that he was known to the Greeks as the god of Gandhara and his emblem of a bull figured for a time on Gandhara’s coins."3

I would like to empathize that my practices, of the moment, are not in any way a reconstructionist and so far the Indo-Greek Kingdoms serve as a bit of historical inspiration.

The few Shinto related practices are related to my relationship with Inari, who I usually give first honors to as I feel I owe him/her my life (long story involving an out of control car and a vision). Also I live in a house currently filled with Otaku (from OSU Animate!), which makes things a bit more relevant.


3. What are your views on the gods/the divine?

My view of the ultimate reality is that of flux, the whole of reality taken together, and yet also empty.

As for the gods themselves I very them in a fairly hard polytheist manner and unless there is very good evidence to the contrary, I do not assume any two gods (of different cultures) to be identical. I view the gods as primarily another type of being who, while they may seem immortal in comparison to the average person, are in the end still caught up in the chains and cycles of Metempsychosis (to imprecisely use the Greek term).

I know some may view this view of the Greek gods as impious but I would like them to stop and think for a moment - Let's take for example the common creation account from Hesiod's Theogony which states that the gods emerged from the primordial Khaos and that some gods were born later (Zeus being of the third generation of gods). Now logically, if something has a beginning, then it also must have an ending for what is eternal cannot have a beginning. Thus one cannot say that the gods are immortal and they they have a beginning arising from the undifferentiated Khaos - which is the true ground (or non-ground) of all being (as an aside note I view Heraclitus as among the wisest of the Greek Philosophers).

Though they are not enlightened beings, they are in some cases powerful and as much a part of the world as your neighbor, friend, local shopkeeper, father, or community leader and thus it is important to have a good relationship with them and to practice reciprocity which is a core concept of Hellenic Polytheism.

In summery: I view the gods a different type of being whose numbers are countless, who can exert some influence based upon their nature, and are in the end still caught up in the great cycle of death and rebirth.

Besides those beings which we call gods there is also spirits inherent in all things - of which in some cases you can experience the numen - the awe and wonder of it's power. This is best expressed by Seneca (in his Epistles Vol. 1 No. 41):

"If you have ever come on a dense wood of ancient trees that have risen to an exceptional height, shutting out all sight of the sky with one thick screen of branches upon another, the loftiness of the forest, the seclusion of the spot, your sense of wonderment at finding so deep and unbroken a gloom out of doors, will persuade you of the presence of a deity. Any cave in which the rocks have been eroded deep into the mountain resting on it, its hollowing out into a cavern of impressive extent not produced by the labours of men but the result of the processes of nature, will strike into your soul some kind of inkling of the divine. We venerate the source of important streams; places where a mighty river bursts suddenly from hiding are provided with altars; hot springs are objects of worship; the darkness or unfathomable depth of pools has made their waters sacred." 5

From the experience of the Numen in places were it is more easily felt, one can also realize the interconnected inherent in all things and it reminds one that there are spirits and numen inherent in more mundane things as well. Thus, the experience of the Numen is immensely important.

4. What are your views on Ethics?

My ethics are primarily derived from Buddhism and the concept of Karma - Action / Cause & Effect - All actions have consequences. If you peruse harmful actions the effect will most likely come back to haunt you through such functions as society and/or the gods, the corruption of your mind leading you into a Hell realm, or other effects. Karma is in my view simply how the universe functions, it is not a quasi-independent god-like principle handing out judgments as some seem to take it.

The correct path is the middle path - moderation in all things - "Nothing too much" to quote the Delphic Maxims and to quote Heraclitus: "To be temperate is the greatest virtue. Wisdom consists in speaking and acting the truth, giving heed to the nature of things." 4

5. What are your views on death?

All beings are caught up in the chains of Metempsychosis destined to be reborn again and again until they reach enlightenment. There are many realms in the Cosmos and where a being may end up is dependent upon their karma. If for example one practices within a Greek structure and believes and acts towards the beliefs that they will end up in hades then they may end up actually arriving there. Similarly if someone is attracted to and practices harmful actions they may end up in a hell-realm - not the result of any judgment handed down on them but as result of their actions and the path which they have followed. However as everything is impermanent, so too is one's life in these other realms and one will eventually be reborn elsewhere.

6. Out of curiosity, what is your background?

Ethnically I'm a mutt with good bits of Cherokee & Welsh and a good bit of other things. My father is an agnostic and my mother is Christian (Nazarene). My grandfather on my mother's side was an odd one - he had a spiritual awakening in Korea and involved himself in some Hermetic groups and had some fairly odd nature based practices (polite term used in the family was that he was a 'mountain man').

A few years after his death I had the following vivid weird dream about him:

My late grandfather and I were hiking up a mountain, it was a fairly hard climb, and after a bit we reached the top... It was an overlook of a large valley with a lake, grassy plains and a forest. The whole valley was filled with strange and mythical creatures! I looked down with wonder and uttered "This... This is impossible!"

My grandfather turned and looked at me with a serious face and said simply "No, it isn't...", and then added after a few moments, "You will understand soon enough..."

And as I stared in wonder he changed into a fox and then ran off down the mountain and into the valley as I stood there... frightened and confused....


My grandfather had a particular fascination with canines and foxes - the one thing he willed me was a stuffed fox.

Also I was raised as a Nazarene but fell out of it before high school due to questioning the theology and then a scandal in the church (cultic behavior of the reverend and his implication in a pyramid scheme).

1. Cousins, Lance. 1997. Buddhism in The New Penguin Handbook of Living Religions (2nd ed.), edited by John R. Hinnells, 371-372. London, U.K.: Penguin Books.
2. Rowland Jr., Benjamin. Gandhara Sculpture from Pakistan Museums. New York: The Asia Society. 1960.
3. Rice, Tamara Talbot. Ancient Arts of Central Asia. New York: Frederick A. Praeger inc. 1965. p. 149
4. Heraclitus. The Complete Fragments. Trans. William Harris. ( http://community.middlebury.edu/~harris/Philosophy/heraclitus.pdf ) Accessed: September 28 2007.
5. This translation taken from ( http://executivepagan.wordpress.com/2007/09/05/shinto-bonus-side-post/ ) because I'm too lazy to type it out - I'm not sure of the translator for the quote.

*I'll try to make a more general update on Tuesday.


*Edit:* DOH! forgot one question I answered myself - edited to add the ethics question.

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Current Location: Otaku
Current Mood: amused
Current Music: Oh Kim Leng - The Blessed Refuges

Comments
rpb3000 From: [info]rpb3000 Date: October 1st, 2007 09:47 pm (UTC) (Link)
It's entries like these that make your journal one of my favorite reads on my friends' page.

I think I may try to answer the same questions later. However, there's a great deal of the unknown in my beliefs; I have a hard time accepting anything without some personal experience or feeling that leads me to believe it as true. So there are many things I sort of want to believe but can't, at least as of yet. *shrug* I'm odd. I also in general want to know more about various practices the world over and the reasons behind their existences.
ns_kumiho From: [info]ns_kumiho Date: October 2nd, 2007 11:21 pm (UTC) (Link)
Ah thanks.

I also in general want to know more about various practices the world over and the reasons behind their existences.

Heh, you in me both - Don't know if you saw my room or not but I have a decent sized library dealing with Religion & Belief systems.
lemon_cupcake From: [info]lemon_cupcake Date: October 1st, 2007 09:51 pm (UTC) (Link)
I really liked your answers here, especially the discussion of Buddhist-Pagan interaction, Gandhara, etc. and your remarks on Heraclitus, a favorite of mine as well.

I had some thoughts on this part:

Let's take for example the common creation account from Hesiod's Theogony which states that the gods emerged from the primordial Khaos and that some gods were born later (Zeus being of the third generation of gods). Now logically, if something has a beginning, then it also must have an ending for what is eternal cannot have a beginning.

Two things come to mind here. First, Neoplatonists who regarded all the Gods as being eternal, without beginning or end, regarded such accounts as referring, not to the absolute origination of the Gods, but to their activity in the cosmos. They took the temporal element in Hesiod's narrative as a symbol for the relationships among forces in a timeless system. So the Gods who are "born later" exercise their powers in a way that presupposes the activity of the "older" ones, even though none of them are literally older or younger than one another.

Second, Aristotle and Plato do indeed both affirm that something can have a beginning but no end, generally having in mind the heavenly bodies. One can dispute whether this notion is valid (as I think Christians did), but nevertheless it was regarded by Platonists and Aristotelians alike as at least coherent.

ns_kumiho From: [info]ns_kumiho Date: October 2nd, 2007 11:17 pm (UTC) (Link)
Ah thanks, I knew somewhat of the Neo-Platonist arguments (really need to go back and study the Greek philosophers again).
lemon_cupcake From: [info]lemon_cupcake Date: October 3rd, 2007 07:01 pm (UTC) (Link)
From Proclus' commentary on Plato's Parmenides:

Whereas a father in this realm [i.e., the realm of beings], even though he is naturally a father, yet is not first “for himself,” and only then father of someone else, but he is what he is solely “for another,” in that realm [i.e., among the Gods] any paternal cause is primarily “for itself,” completing its own essence, and only then bestows an emanation from itself upon things secondary to it; and any offspring exists “for itself,” and only then derives from something else. So when we speak of things being relative to each other in that realm, we must remove from them any notion of bare relation, devoid of essence; for nothing of that sort is proper to the Gods. (In Parm. 936)


dawnpiper From: [info]dawnpiper Date: October 3rd, 2007 09:46 pm (UTC) (Link)

Fascinating...

Hey, this is Erik from ExecutivePagan - I came across your blog via Wordpress' "incoming links" feature. My path is rather similar to yours, although the Buddhist influence is a little less pronounced (aside from my reverence for of Guanyin Bodhisattva, of course...) It's not every day that I come across someone else with this particular mix of influences!

Are you familiar with the "numenism" movement? It was apparently started in the 50s by a GI returning from Japan, and seems to have sort of blended Roman religion and Shinto in a somewhat idiosyncratic way. You might find it interesting to Google.

Also, I'm on the ShintoML Yahoo list, and have seen at least two other Hellenists on that list - I don't suppose you're one of them, by any chance? If not, and if you don't know about it, you might enjoy. Very low traffic most of the time, but there's some really good info in the archives.

Blessings! I'm off to read your archives now... :)
ns_kumiho From: [info]ns_kumiho Date: October 4th, 2007 04:10 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: Fascinating...

Oh hey, enjoying your series on Shinto and Hellenism so far. I was going to make a link to it when I go around to making a decent sized update (in between commenting of Prof. Kasulis' Shinto: The Way Home (Which is quite good though I might be biased as I have taken a few of his classes).

t's not every day that I come across someone else with this particular mix of influences!

LOL! Same here.

Are you familiar with the "numenism" movement? It was apparently started in the 50s by a GI returning from Japan, and seems to have sort of blended Roman religion and Shinto in a somewhat idiosyncratic way. You might find it interesting to Google.

I saw a page on Numinism page and I found it intriguing but from my glancing it seemed to center too much on a god and goddess "Pomona and Vertumnus" and seemed to emulate the Wiccan wheel of the year.


Also, I'm on the ShintoML Yahoo list, and have seen at least two other Hellenists on that list - I don't suppose you're one of them, by any chance? If not, and if you don't know about it, you might enjoy. Very low traffic most of the time, but there's some really good info in the archives.

I'm only on one local pagan list - partly due to time constrains and partly because I'm tried of flame wars (I can go on Fark if I want that). Though I may want to check out that list.
ns_kumiho From: [info]ns_kumiho Date: October 4th, 2007 06:22 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: Fascinating...

"I saw a page on Numinism page"

That's what happens when I write something and go back and then edit...

But anyways unless that page isn't representative or I'm not looking at the right things, Numinism seems to me be something akin to Roman flavored Wicca than anything else.
dawnpiper From: [info]dawnpiper Date: October 4th, 2007 01:29 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Fascinating...

That's more or less the impression I have as well, although the Clan of the Cauldron site takes pains to point out that they're *not* Wicca - and looking at the lesson on their holiday cycle, I can see that there are differences, despite the dates being keyed to the quarters and cross-quarters.

Mostly, though, I'm interested in the fact that it happened at all, and particularly as early as it did - as much for historical interest as religious.
qudaitsewukong From: [info]qudaitsewukong Date: December 8th, 2007 03:26 am (UTC) (Link)
Your beliefs actually sound remarkably similar to my own, though I think I'm a little more Buddhist and a little less Pagan than you. Very cool to see more people who are open to the syncretism there; I meet more Hindu Pagans than I do Buddhist Pagans, it seems! XD

I took a brief stroll through your journal. Do you mind if I friend you?
ns_kumiho From: [info]ns_kumiho Date: December 8th, 2007 01:24 pm (UTC) (Link)
Always good to meet fellow Buddhist-Pagans, Go right a head. =)
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